Janelle Jolley 0:03
Hey, hey and welcome back to What's Left To Do. I'm your host, Janelle. Okay, you're in for a real treat today. I sat down with Rob, who's a young whippersnapper who joined the recently formed Alphabet Workers Union, aka the new union at Google. Part one of his fascinating journey is a look into what life is like for a community that doesn't exist in most people's popular imaginations. That is, the poor working class of Cape Cod that lives in fear of April. We got an esteemed guest today. How did I come to know this gentleman? I'm super glad nobody asked me. Got to know him through a wild hoe named Ben, that I used to live with. He's a dear friend of Ben. Did I aggressively verbally harass today's guest just about every time he was over here during the primary? I did. I rolled up on him like he owed me money. I needed to know about his voter registration status. I needed to know about who- what his voting plan was and who he planned to vote for. He obviously said the right thing, and that's why he's on my couch today. Union strong! Talk to me about your early life.
Yeah, early life. Yeah, young Rob, that's a name I feel like I've carried with me for a while. I don't know exactly why. I feel like maybe it just comes out of being this little dude with just too much energy? And that, like, feeling like I always need to just like, I don't know, mouth off to whoever these- like, just the one level up, either a little bit older or whatever, I feel like I got to just get in there and make mess of it. And so, you know, maybe it was affectionately, maybe it was trying to, you know, keep me in my place. But young Rob was definitely a name that I got early on. But, yeah, so I guess all the way back at the beginning-
Janelle Jolley 2:16
Like, tell me about your family because, yeah, there's an interesting family story there.
I guess so. Yeah, okay. So I grew up on Cape Cod, Massachusetts, which I think-
Janelle Jolley 2:25
I know. See? Okay, and that's...that's the part of the story that I feel like I've just been dealing with my whole life? But I didn't realize when I was really young just that, you know, Cape Cod's a place, capital P. Like, people on the East Coast fricking go vibe on the Cape with their vibing money. And so, yeah, so I just kind of grew up in this place, living full time in a place where most people, and most people's imagination of the place, is this summer paradise where they go and they hang out on the beach-
Janelle Jolley 3:05
They summer, and summer is a verb.
Yeah, summer is a verb.
Janelle Jolley 3:08
And like, yeah, and so I think that this is a, you know, the fact that I knew of the fact that summer could be a verb, despite not knowing how to do summering as a verb myself, I think was a weird contrast that really defines this upbringing. And so, yeah, my dad's a bartender and he's been in the service industry for his whole life. And my mom was mostly in various different incarnations of service tourism throughout growing up, as well. And so, like, very much, I grew up as the...I don't know, as part of what the behind the scenes that makes the cape the place that people want to, like, you know, to do.
Janelle Jolley 3:53
Your family made the fantasy of the Cape possible.
Yes, exactly. And I think that that's a lot of, you know- I don't want to take credit as if my family is making the fantasy possible.
Janelle Jolley 4:02
Sure, sure. No, no. I understood you.
But like, you know, there's a whole...
Janelle Jolley 4:05
There's a reality to it.
Yes. And that is, for the most part, the people who live there full time. There's, you know, the vast majority of the people I went to, you know, middle and high school with, their families are in service in some capacity or trade work or whatever. And so they're, like, the winter population is very different than the summer population.
Can I ask a question?
Janelle Jolley 4:32
During the summer, were the permanent population there, do you guys kind of retreat? Like, do you guys leave when-
No, no. Like, that's the thing because we...like, "We the People of Cape Cod." Like, we- the, you know, the interesting relationship that plays out in a lot of, you know, a lot of different places in life, but like, we depend on tourism, to survive.
Janelle Jolley 4:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so that summertime is the time that we try to get our piece, you know?
Janelle Jolley 5:07
Janelle Jolley 5:08
To do their thing, you know. And it is that time that we need to work to get the tips from these people that are coming in and enjoying their vacation. That we are wiping their tables and bringing them their food and kissing their ass, just so that, like, so that hopefully, we can just, you know, get enough from their grace that we can survive through the winter.
Janelle Jolley 5:31
So really, it's kind of this really just bipolar existence, where the summer is this crazy frenzy of tourist activity all over the place. Like, the town that I grew up in, Eastham. So, you know, Cape Cod, is sort of like an arm. We love having this map of our home that we take around everywhere. And so I'm all the way out on like the forearm. And really, I think as you get farther and farther out on the cape, feels like the bigger the contrast gets between the summer population and the and the winter population.
Janelle Jolley 6:02
Can you describe what you mean?
In that, like, the population in the winter gets smaller, it gets a little bit cozier. You're farther and farther from, you know, the real part of Massachusetts that actually, you know, is Boston suburbs, and the you know, the South Shore, all of this area where there's shit that feels like normal things. And then as you get farther and farther out, it's more kind of sleepy, there's less going on. And there's less of a reason to be out there unless you're just vacationing, or you happen to be the people who survive based off of the people who vacation out there. And so, yeah, my town has something like, I think the yearround population is 1500 or 2000? It's quite small. But the summer population is over 10,000.
Janelle Jolley 6:52
Wow, wow, wow.
So it's just this huge, you know, swelling situation, where once again, the summer is this just desperate, you know, running all over the place trying to, you know, just work as hard as everybody can. Because in the winter we won't have this opportunity to really, like...you know, service dies down. Like, most restaurants close all winter long. There are no, you know, water based tourismy things which-
In the dead of winter.
Yeah, in the dead of winter. And so, you know, there's- I mean, so, you know, one crazy side. So when I was younger, my mom's whole dealio was a pirate ship. She had a pirate ship. So like, you know-
Janelle Jolley 7:39
What, like an actual- like a dead ass ship?
Like a dead ass ship. And so like, yeah. So like, you know, my mom at this point was a small business owner. Like, had this little boat tricked out-
Janelle Jolley 7:52
How did mama get a boat?
Well, a debt is a good start.
Janelle Jolley 7:58
And I think part of it was, like...I don't- like, what's the full story? So I was born in Florida.
Janelle Jolley 8:05
Because my parents were both in the service industry down in Fort Myers and Captiva Island area. Like, they were bartending and shit out there. My mom was doing some other kinds of things, helping out rich boat people doing various things that the rich boat people don't want to pay- or don't want- will pay other people to do for them.
Janelle Jolley 8:28
Sure, sure, sure.
So like, you know, rich people get their boats built, and then somebody's probably got to go sail them over to them, something like that. My mom grew up in Kennebunkport, Maine. So kind of was similarly around this type of scene, knew...you know, like had a similar enough upbringing where there's this contrast. You see that there are the people with all the money and if you kiss their ass well, you can also get by. They will give you enough to, you know- you can earn the right to survive by-
Janelle Jolley 8:56
From their crumbs.
Yes, from their crumbs. And so my dad was doing seasonal, kind of- he was following the tourist season to be a bartender.
Janelle Jolley 9:07
Is he also from Maine?
No, he's from...I don't know, all over the place. He's one of 10, a family with all kinds of crazy, they moved around at different points. I think most of our family is in Ohio right now, but really all over the place.
Janelle Jolley 9:17
But, yeah, my dad was going back and forth following the tourist season in Florida, then coming up to the Cape in the summer when everybody's okay to go north, and then going back down south. I was born and then they were sort of like, "Hey, maybe we should go to a quieter-ish place. And like, you know, following the tourist season and living a, you know, just non stop bartender life is probably not the best way to raise a child."
Janelle Jolley 9:39
And so then they just switch to the, "We'll do that one season a year and just try to vibe the rest and see if we can hang in there." So my mom first got a job driving a pirate ship that this other guy had. Some dude had this crazy idea to just make these little boats decked out like pirate ships, and then do these like funky little tours for, you know, three to 10 year old kids of the wealthy New Yorkers coming to vacation on the Cape, and give them this whole, you know, wonderful adventure. And then, you know, my mom did that for a while. And then, ultimately, this guy was trying to expand, franchise out the situation and selling pirate ships, with my mom, you know, kind of always having that dream, like, "Oh, maybe one day there will be the thing, I just got to do it, and then I will get the money and I won't have to, you know, again, just live this constant chasing hustle, whatever." That having her own business would be some sort of a, you know, way out of this. And it was, you know, it was cool for a while. We got, you know, it worked. We were able to, for the most part, make it through the winters based off of what we could do in the summer, giving these kids these funky tours. And like, you know, just having this weird little way of siphoning off some of this tourist people money into a pirate-
Janelle Jolley 10:59
Pirate small business.
Yeah, we were pirates. We're out here, like, literally, we're pirates!
Janelle Jolley 11:03
And it was a, you know, a whole a whole ass thing. And that was great up until, like, 2008.
Yeah. And so it was right around then that everybody just took, like, a year off of going to the Cape.
Janelle Jolley 11:21
All the rich people?
I mean, not all the rich people, but like, it was a palpable decrease in the volume over that one summer. Like it was like- and it hit a lot of things. Like it was a, you know, like one- like, I knew many people who had their homes foreclosed on, just in the whole underlying just, you know, whatever-
Janelle Jolley 11:42
Of the permanent population?
Yeah, of the permanent population.
Janelle Jolley 11:45
And at the same time, the people whose money we relied on to survive there, cut back just enough that-
Janelle Jolley 11:55
It felt- you felt it.
Yeah, that we felt it.
Janelle Jolley 11:57
And so, at that moment, the, you know, there was a- this coincided with the landlord of the, you know, the dock that the pirate ship was operating out of realized that we were like, you know, some- we were making enough money to survive. And you know, being a landlord was sort of, like, "Great, I would love some of that." And so, being the only one around like, continued to just jack up the rent until we could, you know, like, hardly still stay there. We had to move to a different dock in a different place around the same time there was-
Janelle Jolley 12:26
You mean the landlord of where the pirate ship was?
Janelle Jolley 12:30
Gotcha, gotcha. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, landlords can figure out anything to rent to you, including, you know, just the floating wood in the water.
Janelle Jolley 12:40
Yeah, that's right.
You know, pirates need to do their pirate shit.
Janelle Jolley 12:43
And so, the thread of the story is, you know, really all over the place here.
Janelle Jolley 12:48
No, no, no, it's all good.
But, we made the decision at that point to sell the pirate ship. Yeah, it was a huge ass bummer because it was just that one summer of kind of missing it. Not making, you know, not...not having enough to carry us through that next winter that really just threw everything into this crazy uncertainty. And then the next several years, my mom was just kind of hopping around trying to find all of these different, you know, what are odd jobs and different things you can jump on to that will let you-
Janelle Jolley 13:19
Earn some money.
She tried to become a hairdresser at one point, and that was like a whole thing. Like, you know, took out student loans to go to cosmetology school to try to get that whole thing done.
Janelle Jolley 13:28
You have to build a book of clients. It's a volume game.
Yeah, exactly. You know, especially when the seasonality really hits every single industry-
Janelle Jolley 13:37
It's so hard to build up something when you only have two and a half months a year when you know that there's enough of a stream of anything to, you know, build up whatever the heck you want to do.
Janelle Jolley 13:48
And so there were other times, like, you know, there's a lot of retirees on the Cape, so my mom was trying to do stuff where, you know, she was taking care of, you know, being like an in-home kind of assistant for various elderly folks, or trying to do like, "I'll come to your house and do your hair cut there."
Janelle Jolley 14:04
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stuff like that. And just subject to the whims of the people who come there to grace us with their presence and their-
Janelle Jolley 14:16
Yeah, and their riches. And I think that that was a thing that I didn't really register and... like, that I grew up with not entirely registering the significance of the inequality until, you know, until I got a lot older. Like, I was- you know, here I am, you know, similarly in the summer getting to hang out with all the rich kids and play around. Like, I took sailing lessons at this, you know, local little yacht club. Also not really having a great sense of like, "Yacht Club? What the hell?" And, you know, and I did maybe- like, I was aware of the fact that we couldn't...that is was very "a thing" to be able to pay to take these lessons or to do anything like that. Like it was a whole, like, "Oh, I don't know. Like, maybe we can do like two weeks of this," or something like that. Or like, "Yikes, yikes," whatever. And, ultimately, I was able to keep doing this by getting a job teaching sailing. So at this point, I am teaching the kids who come vacation on the Cape. And it just like, ah, I don't know, it's all just kind of this big mess in my head of all of these just different scenes that, in retrospect, I can realize are just pictures of two distinct classes living here. And that the ones that half the people don't see the struggle that is like, you know, April. April on the Cape is when everybody's money runs out. And it's still cold and like, there's no, you know... it...is interesting to just...to know...that the only reason that these people enjoy coming here is because we put on this show for them. But to ultimately not to struggle to even be able to stay there. That the demand for the tourist experience drives up the price of housing, drives up the price of everything else. People are buying second homes-
Janelle Jolley 16:53
And pricing out the people who do the work to make it their playground.
Janelle Jolley 17:01
I think that just kind of was something that really infused into my ethos growing up that I slowly started to resent this difference, more and more, as I realized just how different the lives were. Like that, you know, just from the little things of the New York license plates not stopping at the crosswalks. You're just like, "Fuck outta here." You know, you can feel the coming-
Janelle Jolley 17:30
Yes, the imposition. And that, at the same time, that this is what we dreamed we maybe could be, too.
Janelle Jolley 17:39
Like it was this same, like, "We got to live alongside the rich in the summer. Yes, we were hustling and, you know, working two jobs and doing all of this thing, but, you know, we got to, for a moment, share that kind of a-"
Janelle Jolley 17:58
The same rarefied air.
Exactly. Share this rarefied existence. And then...
Janelle Jolley 18:03
But then it goes away.
And then it goes away.
Janelle Jolley 18:04
Just that quickly.
Yeah, and then you've got, you know, just depression and all kinds of other shit that comes with that. I mean, there's probably all kinds of just coverage of just like, you know, the frickin like, alcoholism, and, you know, opiate problems that happen in, you know, the South Shore of Massachusetts and the Cape in the winter. And I think a lot of this comes, again, from this really seasonal existence, that is a bummer. And, you know, we...we felt it. And, at the same time, I became aware, also at a young age, because I was a little bit of a nerd, I like to read my math books. And there was kind of this alternative narrative that started to get pushed in my young life, which was they noticed that I liked the math and could add things up okay. They were like, "Oh, you gotta hang on to that. Do that, because that's a thing that will get you out." Like, "This is a ticket," you know? Like, "You have this thing." Whereas, you know, a lot of- there's a lot of people just like that I grew up with that were multiple generations on the Cape.
Janelle Jolley 19:07
Like, you know, their parents are in service, they end up doing the same thing because it's really easy to kind of just get stuck in that loop.
Janelle Jolley 19:12
Like, it's similar sort of thing happened to my dad, not in the same exact context, but in, you know, he started in service when he was young as a way to help pay for trying to go to college but ultimately dropped out and stayed in bartending and never really... like never had this kind of alternative path to go do something else. Like, it was sort of like "Okay, well, this is getting me through the shit right now."
Janelle Jolley 19:47
But there's no path that goes anywhere else out of that. I don't know.
Janelle Jolley 19:52
As you were growing up as a part of the permanent population on the Cape, do you have any...are there any particular stories, funny little stories or memories that come to mind of everybody hustling in the summer versus, you know, they kicking back and kind of just trying to peace out what they've made. Like, do you have any particularly fond memories or anecdotes about that?
Yeah. I mean...I guess it's the winter memories that stand out a lot more, you know? Like, the summer feels like it was always a bit of a blur. Like, it just happens, it's going nuts, everybody's working, and then it's over. And then you finally have a second to evaluate what happened in the winter. And like, you know, we heated our home with wood. Like, we had a wood stove in the house.
Janelle Jolley 20:44
No central heating?
We had central heating, but oil is really expensive.
Janelle Jolley 20:49
And so we- wood was cheaper. There was wood around that we could get. And so, you know, the winter was this kind of really nice arc of, in the fall, my mom would have us all go out and chop and stack the wood. We'd get a giant pile just delivered and, you know, she'd be like, "Good things come to those who work hard. Go stack this wood and I will reward you," and sort of this, sort of-
Janelle Jolley 21:13
"I will reward you with-"
Yeah, exactly. Will reward you with, yeah, not being fucking freezing cold. And then, you know, that would get later into the winter and the, you know, this is just going longer and longer without any kind of consistent income. At some point, we run out of wood, but usually that's around like April-ish. And usually at that point, not trying to buy more frickin wood.
Janelle Jolley 21:38
But we still got to heat the house a little bit, because it's still cold. And so then we'd get really resourceful. And like, you know, there's old fences behind the house and shit, or something like that, we'd go take those and chop them up and throw them in there. Like, I remember, I got this one great memory of an old chair that we had that my mom got frustrated at because one of the, you know, it was starting to get all wobbly and falling apart. And she just took it outside and just smashed the shit out of it. And then we burned it and kept us warm, but-
Janelle Jolley 22:07
When you say, I'm just trying to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, when you say no, or little income during the winter, like, what do you mean? Like, quantify that for me. Is that like, literally no income or just very- like you just- or just odd jobs you can take here and there?
Odd jobs here and there.
Janelle Jolley 22:25
Okay. So nothing consistent.
Yeah, nothing consistent. I mean, my dad, you know, was fortunate enough to work at restaurants that stayed open in the winter. So he was able to, you know, have some sort of a...something. But there's not nearly as many people going there. Like, the tips are-
Janelle Jolley 22:43
Mostly just the locals who keep coming into the few local restaurants that are around. And, you know, this- the...obviously, servers don't really make salary that makes any sense. So like, you're only, you know, you're being paid below minimum wage. And it is only through the fact that you get tips that, you know, make up to at least minimum wage where you are allowed to even, you know, get paid so little in that context.
Janelle Jolley 23:12
This is not an option. Like this wasn't some- this wasn't cute- this was, like, this is in order to survive everyone hustles and make the most of their fucking money during the summer. And then we have to be really precise and stretch it for the rest of the year because that is it.
Yeah. I like, you know, and I don't think I could necessarily- like, I'm not sure that this was the experience that everyone who lives there year round had?
Janelle Jolley 23:36
Sure, sure, sure.
Like, I know that there's plenty of people who had more consistent-ish jobs, but, you know- or, not -ish, but, you know, like trade work, obviously.
Janelle Jolley 23:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, you know, there are plumbers, etc.
Janelle Jolley 23:46
But, yeah, but at the same time, even all of that work swells and then ebbs in the winter.
Janelle Jolley 23:54
Yeah, yeah. I gotcha. I gotcha.
The tide rises and falls.
Janelle Jolley 23:57
We love all them, you know, nice little frigging beachy analogies to understand everything, but-
Janelle Jolley 24:03
You have the language now and you have an understanding of class difference now, what- how do you think you thought about your family's station as a child? Like, did you have an under- what was your understanding of that as a child?
My understanding at the time had nothing to do with class it was just around like, "We do some cool interesting shit."
Janelle Jolley 24:27
And then like, you know, like, "Oh, my dad works nights and that's interesting." And like... yeah, I guess- so there was another interesting or significant piece is that my dad briefly opened a coffee shop. He too kind of wanted to, you know, again, like this dream of being in service, I feel like, is to that, like the up- the thing that you can aim for is maybe one day being the owner.
Janelle Jolley 24:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That you can have your own thing.
Janelle Jolley 24:50
And that maybe you would have to...you wouldn't have to do the same grind. You wouldn't be working like, you know, as, you know, you're not selling your labor to someone else.
Janelle Jolley 24:59
You own your own means of production here, and-
Janelle Jolley 25:02
Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, my mom and dad take out a bunch of loans, try to buy this, you know, little coffee shop that wasn't doing well and wanted to kind of try to transform and say like, "Okay, I can do- this is my dream. I want to have a little coffee shop and finally, you know, get my little piece. Just be able to vibe." It was a nightmare.
Janelle Jolley 25:24
My dad worked, you know, like 100 hours a week just trying to get this place going. Busting his ass, wranglin high school kids to try to, you know, be baristas and shit like that.
Janelle Jolley 25:36
And like, you know, and just the amount of stress that he carried during those five or six years was insane. Like, I hardly knew my dad during this period of time.
Janelle Jolley 25:46
Wow, wow, wow. How old were you during the coffee shop epoch?
Coffee shop days. The shop days were seven to 12, I want to say? I think I was seven to 12, my sister was like five to 10. And...yeah, we-
Janelle Jolley 25:57
Did the coffee shop epoch come during, before or after the pirate ship?
Overlapped a little bit and ended around the same time. I think-
Janelle Jolley 26:08
Yeah. Yeah. I think that that was similarly when- yeah, maybe if I'm doing the math, right- yes, right around there. I think that was when, you know, I'm not sure if it was directly related to that, really? Or if that was just when my dad finally had enough and, you know, frickin got out till the coffee shop- like, you know, net loss.
Janelle Jolley 26:25
Did not come out with any fricking- like, you know, we survived during that time.
Janelle Jolley 26:30
But there was no profit made on this endeavor. There was just a lot of-
Janelle Jolley 26:35
A lot of sweat and stress and...yeah. I mean, you know, the one pro that I look at at the other side is I feel like, you know, my dad was under so much stress just trying to keep this shit alive, that after he came out of that he was just the most loosey goosey motherfucker in the world. Like a tree, you try to bend it all the way over and, you know, then you finally let it go and it's just like, "Whoa!" So, like, that was pretty cool. But, you know, again, going back to your original question like, "How am I conceiving of this?" is all to say, I'm not thinking about it that way, in any way.
Janelle Jolley 27:07
You're just- you're a child.
Yeah, I'm a child. I'm vibing here just looking at like, "Wow, we got some hustle going on, on all different sides." I'm not really psyched about what it does for my dad, because he's grumpy. Like, you know, I end up spending a lot of time just sitting in this coffee shop late at night as he's trying to sweep up and do all this shit and count the money and like, whatever. And then I'm just sort of like, "Can you stop that? Can we just like frickin go home at this point? Like, why do we-"
Janelle Jolley 27:08
Can we just chill?
Yeah, just chill. "Like, why can't we- I don't know, do you have to go into the shop in the morning too? Do you have to close it and open it, and then close it again, and open it again?" And, like, I know, you know, so like, I can feel that it's stressful and that it's a bummer and that my parents are stressed about money. I think this is one thing that my mom is...like, you know, when we've talked since, she's a little bit like, "Damn it, I let that bleed through a little bit too much to y'all, that financial anxiety was something that you guys could feel." And, you know, she's like, "I wish I had done a better job of not letting you feel that." But...that's hard. That's just what it is.
Janelle Jolley 28:14
Like, it's hard not to notice that that's what's going on when it has this lurching, you know, rhythm.
Janelle Jolley 28:23
Like, it's one thing to be in a constant state of low level, you know, whatever. But when you can really feel the difference between like, "Okay, the summer's doing all right," and then we get to May and then just the, you know, the steam runs out and it becomes this like, "Oh, shit. Alright, we just got to make it through this month. And then...hopefully we'll get it up going again. And then we'll make it."
Janelle Jolley 28:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, again, just that-
Janelle Jolley 28:47
How do you- and you can tell me to fuck off if I'm getting too close to your business. But, do you- how do you think your experience of...your experience of your parents relationship with money and, you know, hustling to have it, have enough of it to take care of you guys, themselves, blah, blah, blah. How do you think that has...you...have you internalized that, A.? B. If so...if so, how? Like, how does that-
A. No fucking doubt. Like, yes. And like, I think that that was another thing that kind of affected, you know, going back to that point about, "Oh, I realize I had this math thing and could grind on that." And that was, you know, a thing, which was, I think, a way that I internalized and redirected this kind of shit. Is like, I can perceive that there is stress, that we are worried about things, and I think from a young age I internalized that as like, "Okay, well, I need to take care of myself and make sure I'm not an additional burden here. I want to try to make sure that I can take care of myself, that my parents don't have to worry about any of that shit. I'm just gonna sit over here and read a book." Like, "Dad, you frickin take care of the coffee shop. I can tell you're stressed. I'm just gonna read this book over here," and, you know, both as like a, "I am avoiding this and not trying to deal with it," and also like, "Hey, maybe this will be my ticket out one day because I read a book real hard." Yeah. And so, I think that, again, there was this idea that I'm on a mission to make my family not have to stress this much. And I don't know how much I consciously felt it that at the time. But that's what I look at now. Like, that is what young brain was actually feeling was like, "I need to go grind because this is wack. And maybe there's a chance that we won't have to grind in this same way." If, you know, again, like buying the meritocracy thing. Being like, "Yeah, all I got to do is just work the right amount of hard." And like, same thing with my mom. She was constantly like, "You know, I just gotta find that thing, then we're gonna finally be rich. That's it." Like, "You know, maybe it's this pirate ship, maybe some other shit." You know, after the pirate ship, there was this whole phase of several frickin, you know, multi level marketing kind of things.
Janelle Jolley 31:07
Like, just all of these like, "We just need that thing."
Janelle Jolley 31:11
Just that one thing.
That one thing.
Janelle Jolley 31:12
Just that one come up. Mm-hm.
Yeah. And I'm sort of like, "Mom, that's dumb as hell. Stop. Don't fucking do it." And she's like, "No, look at this. Look at these stories. These people, fuckin' made it."
Janelle Jolley 31:22
Right, right, right.
She's like, "This is what I want to be when I grow up. I'm gonna be this."
Janelle Jolley 31:26
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My mom would say that a lot. She's like, "I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up." And I'm just like, "Mom, what the hell are you talking about?"
Janelle Jolley 31:34
That's so interesting.
But, yeah, so I think, you know, then...my story just continues as me being Mr. Nerd Man. And then getting-
Janelle Jolley 31:45
But can I- let's park right here for a second, Mr. Nerd Man.
Janelle Jolley 31:49
As a child was- did you have it as your explicit conscious or subconscious goal to, quote, make it out? Like, what did that mean to you as a child? Like, explain your- try and explain your thinking from that time.
Yeah, definitely. I think, "Make it out," was a phrase that did exist in my consciousness. I feel like, in some way.
Janelle Jolley 32:17
And what did that mean to you?
It meant...like, it's interesting. Yeah. It's almost like, it's like I knew that that was the goal. I don't know exactly what it meant other than like, "Don't be here." Like, be in a- like, that there exists a way of life that doesn't feel this lurchy and that has...I mean, be on the other side, I guess. Like, be the ones who vacation on the Cape. Like, to dream of getting to a point where you don't clean up after them. Like, you don't...I don't know. Like, I guess-
Janelle Jolley 32:52
Can I...walk with me here.
I'm walking, I'm walking.
Janelle Jolley 32:57
Or, we'll walk together here. Did getting out, do you think that as a child, as a youngster, getting out, quote unquote, to you meant stability?
Janelle Jolley 33:11
Leisure! Yeah, exactly!
Janelle Jolley 33:14
Did it mean happiness? A happiness that you weren't able to experience in your current kind of, like-
Yeah, like a happiness that comes from the absence of stress. Like, that that was the happiness that I feel like- it's like, it's not like we didn't...we weren't happy?
Right, right, right. Yeah, you could smile. Even in April, when things were super tight.
Right, right. Exactly. Like, you know, we're just doing our due. But, that, like, the thing... yeah, was just...to not have to worry about what April's gonna feel like.
Janelle Jolley 33:51
Gotcha. So getting out meant to you, like one way of saying that is, getting out meant, like, "At any point in the year, I am free of worry about how I'm going to get through this point."
Janelle Jolley 34:05
Janelle Jolley 34:06
And I'm not the one putting the team on my back here. I'm just child vibing and I feel like it's almost like, "I'm holding my breath I'm going over here I can feel that this is a stressful time I'm gonna just be in my room with my book."
Janelle Jolley 34:21
And, you know what? That's cool. Are- okay, you know what, we just-
Janelle Jolley 34:24
Try and weather this and not be as visible not add to the stress.
Right, right. We gotta cream tuna fish. That was a good dinner that just came-
Janelle Jolley 34:33
What is cream tuna fish?
It's just, you know-
Janelle Jolley 34:36
Like tuna fish salad?
Yeah, yeah. Kinda like we got tuna in a can and then you just add some milk or some shit to it and put it over bread. And it was just like, "Bird up." April tastes like cream tuna fish.
Janelle Jolley 34:48
Huh. Is that why you're so into food now?
I think that was something that when I got to college, I realized just how not varied my food experience growing up was. Both because, you know, we're not...you know, both because we're not going out to dinner very much. If we do, there's the local pizza spot, or something like that. You know, most of the cuisine was a lot of spaghetti and meatballs. Like, we got a lot of that kind of shit and...and very little diversity around the area. Like, that's the other thing. You know, this is WASPy New England. Like, this is a really pretty homogenous community and there's very little just diversity in the food that was available in restaurants and- like you know, seafood was there.
Janelle Jolley 35:40
Ironically, I hated seafood growing up. I was like, "Fish? This is gross. I don't get it." And then I don't- like, now I love fish. But like, I think I just had no concept at the time even that this was the desirable thing, that people loved to come here and get the fresh seafood, and I'm like, "Oh, Jesus, I'm not so sure about that."
Janelle Jolley 35:56
Not that we were necessarily, you know, vibing on lobster all the time, unless my mom was wheeling and dealing trading with the fishermen, and shit like that. Being like, "Oh, we got a bunch of extra life jackets over here. If you want some extra life jackets that we don't need, I'll trade you for, you know, a couple pounds of lobster."
Janelle Jolley 36:11
Or something like that. Or like a peck basket of oysters and, like, you know, that was some funky stuff we got into at some different point. I have no idea what the original thread of what we were currently talking about was, but-
Janelle Jolley 36:21
Oh, yeah, the food! Yeah, that was it. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I guess a little aside, is that now I absolutely love food. I'm just exploring all this different food that I never knew existed. Like, I had never had Indian food until I went to college. And like, that was wild! That was so exciting. I was just like, "Holy fucking- spices? God damn!" Like, "This is some other shit!" Like-
Janelle Jolley 36:51
I don't know. And just like-
Janelle Jolley 36:54
He goes, "Spices!" Ah, that's so funny, because it's so true. WASPs don't do spice.
They just don't.
Janelle Jolley 37:04
They do not.
Just do not! And so that was a...yeah, mind boggling. And now, I just keep, you know, it's just a thing that I-
Janelle Jolley 37:15
You've been turned out.
Yes, I've been turned- yes, exactly.
Janelle Jolley 37:17
Okay. What was your understanding as a child of your parents dream for you? Or aspirations for you? You understand what I'm saying? Like-
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got, I think, a lot of verbal like, "You do whatever you want. It's all great." Like, there's definitely a lot of this...I felt- at least, I internalized pressure to make use of this...nerd situation. Whatever- like, I don't know. Like, yes, I had an aptitude for math and I could feel...or, I internalized pressure to pursue that as the thing that would make my parents proud, given that they did not... seemingly have access to a career path that was...I don't know. Like, knowledge work. This, like, white collary-
Janelle Jolley 38:13
Yeah, like professional, whatever. Like, that...that these were aspects of different class that one could, you know, one could...maybe I feel it as- I feel it most profoundly when I was like, 16 or something, and started smoking weed? Like, I got in some fights with my mom about this, when it comes out at one point. And I think that was when I really felt that- because she was so worried that I was going to throw it away. That it was like, I have this chance to go study and end up in a different position, but that, you know, if I just start being a frickin stoner-ass mother fucker that I might just blow it all, and then end up in the exact same position, and just be like- and I think, I don't know, like I, you know, I don't want to friggin psychoanalyze my mom. But I imagine there's some fear that, you know, she could have also had some shot. And same for my dad. Oh, like, may- and it was getting into the restaurant business, or whatever, and kind of, you know, the fun nightlife vibe that you can do and make some money at the time, that this is all going to pull you away and miss your shot at going somewhere else.
Janelle Jolley 39:29
Do you think that was your parents' story? I mean, not that you can speak for them and not that you have to, but do you think that was your parents' story- for either or both of them, that like, "We got to a fork in the road because, you know, we had a particular talent or aptitude or interest that, had we," fill in the blank, "had we pursued it more doggedly, had we been encouraged more, had we had the resources to more, I could be looking at a different life." Or, like, but- or, I start- and I'm not trying to say your parents did this, but, you know, "But I got kind of into, you know, nightlife and, you know, having fun and not super serious about things. And this is why we've ended up here." Like, do you think that that's part of their story?
I think something like that. Like, I don't- I definitely think that that is a, at least in the same thematic realm.
Janelle Jolley 40:20
You know? And I think that...you know, my mom got an associate's degree in graphic design. I think that there was an idea there that she was maybe going to go in, you know, in that that's the thing that has, like professional...
Janelle Jolley 40:34
Yeah, exactly. And, similarly, my dad was, you know, he- his whole thing is like, his dad made him go to the Air Force Academy because he got in. And my dad just wanted to, you know, he just wanted to be a journalist. YHe wanted to go to Penn State and be a journalist and write about sports. He loves sports. He was also really good at math, could keep all these fucking sports stats and shit like that.
Janelle Jolley 40:56
Yeah, yeah yeah.
And that's what we wanted to do. His dad was like, "No, you're going to the Air Force Academy, cuz that's- they'll pay for it for you and it's prestigious."
Janelle Jolley 41:03
Yeah, and my dad was like, "Fuckin', that's stupid as hell."
Janelle Jolley 41:07
But he did it.
But he had- yeah, he did. Because that was what he did. And then he, you know, his favorite line is, "Hardest thing he ever did was get kicked out of the Air Force Academy." And did before the two years when he would be, you know, required to do the service, or whatever. And so that was the initial just kind of totally derailing this whole situation and starting off on the wrong thing. Then he tried to go back to school at Ohio State for a hot second. And, again, was pursuing journalism, wanted to do that but was, you know, started bartending to kind of help pay through, you know, pay for that and all- you know, whatever the- and, yeah, and then just kind of ended up on that path.
Janelle Jolley 41:07
And, you know, stopped doing the college thing. It was a pain in the ass, there was all kinds of different just little institutional gripes that he ran into, where, like, he wanted to do this Spanish class. And then they were like, "Well, it turns out two thirds of the way through this semester, you don't have the prerequisites. So you're not gonna get any credit for this, even though you're doing fine here."
Janelle Jolley 42:03
Sure, sure, sure.
And he was like, "This is bullshit. I hate the man."
Janelle Jolley 42:05
And I am instead going to be a bartender, and I got my sports trivia, and that makes me good tips.
Janelle Jolley 42:11
So, you know, he vibed that, and then 40 years later, we're- this is where we're at. And so I think, you know, there's at least some sense that there was a fork at one point.
Janelle Jolley 42:23
And they took the fork that didn't go, you know- in that, like, you know, I will also one day run into this fork, and that there's a chance that I could go the other side of the fork, and that that would lead to some sort of a...I don't know, better life in some sense. It all kinds of feels like cliche and abstract.
Janelle Jolley 42:44
2008, like, the crash, the Great Recession? How did you understand that time? What was that like for you? And how did it shape you?
2008 was much more significant than 2001. Like, guys, like, 911 was less the defining event.
Janelle Jolley 43:01
Like, you know, public con- the collective consciousness event was 2008. And I think that that-
Janelle Jolley 43:10
How old were you at that point?
I was 13.
Janelle Jolley 43:13
Okay. So you were a very early teenager during that time.
Yeah. And I think that that was sort of my political awakening at that moment. Like, it was suddenly just seeing, like, seeing the dots connect in a little bit.
Janelle Jolley 43:29
Tell me what you mean by that.
Where I could see, "Oh, shit. There's some stuff on the news about this." You know, like, "Oh." I guess, seeing like, "Oh, our neighbors down the road just had to leave because their house was foreclosed on. And our- we are hurting now a lot more and our business did not do well because people vacationed less. And there's this thing called the stock market that people seem to care about, and it's not doing great, but I have no idea- like, I could give two shits. It just seems like, it seems like somehow this nonsense over here is actually affecting us." And I'm just sort of like, "How in the hell does that, you know, happen?" And just, you know, like that...to see to the next year that people, they keep coming back and they're still vacation- like...that the impact for the people that we depended on was that they took a little bit of a break from their vacation. And the impact on us was that, like, we are scrambling.
Janelle Jolley 43:51
And I think that that was really...I don't know. You know, it echoes here right now. It's the same thing. Like, here is a economic crisis that the owners- well, not not even the, you know, I guess there's a whole nother point about, you know, the differences in the class distinctions here where there's, like, surely there's tons of variation within the 99 percent here.
Janelle Jolley 45:01
But, and so, like, I guess in this case I'm talking more about the, you know, the ones that we were encountering were probably more just the upper middle class, rather than the owners.
Janelle Jolley 45:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And yeah, just to see the way in which this event affected everyone, but us worse. And just like that...like, feeling the lack of the cushion underneath. Feeling that like, "Damn, it looks like some hooligans out there were wildin' out on some fucking dumb shit. And, like, and now we are not having a good time."
Janelle Jolley 45:49
And it's just sort of like-
Janelle Jolley 45:51
Yeah, like, you know, frickin, you know, give me some collateralized debt obligation, whatever the hell that sh- you know, give me some nonsense stock mumbo jumbo. And, you know, turns out you fucked it. And now, you know, then we see that they get bailed out.
Janelle Jolley 46:14
Great! Like, I don't know. I feel like-
Janelle Jolley 46:16
Did you understand that though, at 13?
Not entirely, but that's when I started to put it together. Like, that's when I started to look at it and be like, "Wait a second, this is fucked right up." Like, I think I had no sense of any of this more macro sort of things, or even really a great understanding of class. Or, there was such stark inequality as a structural phenomenon, like beyond what my personal experience was.
Janelle Jolley 46:43
Knowing that there's the people who go back to Connecticut in the winter. And then there's the ones that are us.
Janelle Jolley 46:48
Yeah. So it's not- so is it- am I understanding you correctly, that you didn't necessarily understand all the wonky specifics, but you knew generally that this shit is fucked up. Something's really wrong, and it's fucked up.
Right. And putting together that there is wonky mumbo jumbo that has absolutely nothing to do with us.
Janelle Jolley 47:08
But it's still coming to affect us.
But it's still affecting us. Like, just sort of being like...just starting to see this shit that it's like, "Wait, why are we here right now? What was it that caused this?"
Janelle Jolley 47:19
Like, "What in the hell?"
Janelle Jolley 47:21
And then just kind of starting to radicalize myself via books and just trying to be like, "Let me understand what on earth is going on here." The word communist entered, you know, my vocabulary and I sought the manifesto. Like, you know, I feel like beginning as a contrarian and ending as a comrade. And just sort of, like, maybe less the reading of any one individual thing, but more of a change in my perspective when consuming the information that I did consume.
Janelle Jolley 47:52
Like, you know, in school, we read about feudalism and shit like this. And I'm just starting to sort of draw connections there, where I'm just sort of like, "Hmm. That is an interesting system that we seem to have all collectively agreed is whack as hell, and yet I feel like it sounds familiar. And I'm not sure. Hmm, that's curious." And just, you know, and then just having this really abstract idea that like, "Well, it seems like these people over here are pitching this idea that there could be a society where we're all just vibing."
Janelle Jolley 47:53
And I'm just sort of, you know, again, I have no, you know, I'm not, at this point, not well versed in theory in any kind of way.
Janelle Jolley 48:39
I'm not really seeing how it all comes together. But I'm starting to believe that there is a world that could be. That people talk about this thing where it's not like this. And that's cool.
Janelle Jolley 48:52
And yet, we seem to insist that we should- this other thing is better. I mean, maybe it was, like, growing to hate them. It was like-
Janelle Jolley 49:02
Hate or resent, or both?
Resent, resent, resent. You're right.
Janelle Jolley 49:05
No, no, no. We can use the "h" word if that's approproate.
I mean, I...I guess now I have matured to the point of resentment.
Janelle Jolley 49:12
Maybe hated them for a bit.
Janelle Jolley 49:13
Sure. That's fine.
Yeah. Like, you know, there's definitely some 16 year old anger when it really starts to kind of come together that like, "Wow, this fuckin', like-"
Janelle Jolley 49:22
Right. "We went through some bullshit."
Yeah, that it is...that it is literally at our expense that this is possible.
Janelle Jolley 49:28
That like- and, you know, and just slowly starting to put together that it is the extraction of the value that the workers are providing that lets this happen.
Janelle Jolley 49:39
Sort of being like...is it really- like, you know, okay, this idea of grinding out and getting to being rich, does that just mean that you figure out how to extract the value from other people that you stop having your value extracted, and you become an extractor?
Janelle Jolley 49:55
And I was just sort of like, "That doesn't seem great." I don't like this zero sum mentality where, you know, if you want, you got to get it. You know, that we're all fighting each other for this limited chance to actually be vibing. And that, you know, in fact, this is the only way to do it, because there's not enough vibes for everybody. And so you got to fight for your vibe. You know-
Janelle Jolley 50:22
We're gonna- I want everyone to Control F "vibe" for resource, that's listening to this. But, go ahead. I like vibing. But you- was it at that point, did you- post 2008, through this nascent sort of political awakening that you were having in your teens as a result. At that point, did you completely cease the desire to become the people you had to serve for your survival? Or was there just a tension around that?
I think it was just tension. And actually, so the thing is, at this point, I actually think I was rejecting the idea of pursuing a professional career as a-
Janelle Jolley 51:18
And that I wanted to be a scientist.
Janelle Jolley 51:21
Like, I think I was just sort of like, "I like my math but, actually, I don't buy into this grind and I want to just do something I think is good, in and of itself." And like that, you know, "People keep telling me that I can make a lot of money doing my math, or whatever. But like, that's- I just want to do something that I feel good about, and that I can survive on." And like, I remember, you know, making a- I think I made some ridiculous statemen at some point. Maybe it was senior year of high school or something, when I was just like, "I would take a deal right now where if somebody said I would be guaranteed to have housing forever, that I would just work and do research forever." Maybe this was actually in freshman year of college, I think. Like, I started to look at some flies under microscopes and shit and thought, "Oo, shit. This is cool." And just sort of like- but also, then coming to realize, like, "Wait a second, actually, just going to research also is a fucking grind."
Janelle Jolley 52:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a lot of work and not that much money. And kind of, again, realizing that the types of people who have access to doing these things, which don't pay that much, often are people who already have the money.
Janelle Jolley 52:26
And maybe we're getting to this point, too, is like, you know, I feel like in college, this accelerates a lot. Like, my understanding of this difference. And, like-
Janelle Jolley 52:39
Were you the only person from your area that got into an Ivy?
No. So actually, it was interesting. Our year had a couple, which was like a big surprise. It was, you know, just me and two people from my class went to Harvard. And that was crazy.
Janelle Jolley 52:59
Yeah! And that was- like, that...not super heard of for-
Janelle Jolley 53:04
Where else did you apply?
That was actually the only place because I applied early, and I got in.
Janelle Jolley 53:09
Shut the fuck up. You only applied to one college, which was Princeton, and you got in? You didn't apply to, like, UMass?
Well, I would have- like, that was the...so here's the deal. Well, one, applying early meant that, you know, that it was- this was early decision sort of situation.
Janelle Jolley 53:25
Yeah, but it's early decision, you know, in one of the ivoriest of ivory towers.
True. So I had, you know, my apps prepped for everywhere else. Like, you know, it's not like I'm here, just being like, "Yeah, this is my only move." But there was this sense too, like, here's this other feeling that's going on the whole time is like, "I've got two options here. Either I get into an ivy that has enough financial aid that I can, that they can, in fact, make it so that I don't have massive loans to go there. Or, I go to my state school where I can get great scholarships." That I was, you know, that there's this whole grind or whatever leading up to, trying to get into a good college that would, again, be the next ticket to the next thing and, you know, build that fake ass stack of pedigree shit that lets you do the rest of the shit.
Janelle Jolley 54:14
And that there was a massive chance that I could theoretically have an opportunity but not be able to afford it. And, you know, that there are a number of amazing colleges but a very small number that give you all the financial aid you need. And so I think that was kind of the thing that was in my head there was like, "I either get this or I don't."
Janelle Jolley 54:43
Who- were your parents able to shepherd you through this period and strategy? Who helped you with this?
This was...this was mostly just my own move, I think.
Janelle Jolley 54:54
Like, your own research and kind of-
Yeah, yeah. Like, I was the- you know, it was, like, throughout all of high school I feel like I had been- you know, again, this is the sort of thing that's in the back of my mind that like, "Okay, I gotta...this is the thing, this is what I'm working for." And so I'm researching colleges and shit like that and being like, "Okay, wow, there are- you know, these few have financial-" actually, you know, one of the big things that pointed me to Princeton as the place to look was they had the single best financial aid that was available. And it was-
Janelle Jolley 55:21
For low income students?
Yes, yeah. And so it was like-
Janelle Jolley 55:23
And you qualified?
Yeah. Like, were I to get in, I would have the whole- like, they would cover everything, essentially.
Janelle Jolley 55:30
And so that was the dream, was like, "If I can get this, it's going to...it'll happen," you know? And so it was- that was the- that was the Hail Mary shot, I think.
Janelle Jolley 55:43
Sure. Did you get into Princeton on a combo of grades and test scores? Or does one outweigh the other? Or was it both?
I mean, I think it was, like... I think my grades were solid, my test scores were solid. I think the thing that, if I had to guess, the thing that did it was that I was doing all this math on the side and sent in this packet of all my math shit that I mailed and was like, "Hey, I do math. You think that that's cool?" And I think- I mean, that's what I imagine- cuz I don't think my test scores or other shit was good. But, you know, my application probably got read after lunch and people were feeling jazzed and they gave me a shot. Like, you know? It was, you know, the whole- like, I don't credit...hard work may be necessary, but it's certainly not sufficient. And clearly, it's also sometimes depending on where you're born, not necessary. So it's like- it's, you know, it's almost- like, it's largely orthogonal here.
Janelle Jolley 56:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And...but all that is to say that, like, won the lottery here. Like, it happened. And I just remember too, that moment is seared into my head. My, you know, my parents had been divorced for like, 13 years at that point. And my dad came over to my mom's house that afternoon, when we knew that decisions were coming out. We had an exchange student from Brazil was staying with us because, you know, also great way to supplement income a little bit, hosting an exchange student. Had a nice little situation there. And we were all sitting around the couch, my sister, my parents and our exchange student, and we opened that shit, and just- it was...and we just freaked out.
Janelle Jolley 57:17
Janelle Jolley 57:18
How happy were your parents?
Like, it was just, like, crying.
Janelle Jolley 57:20
Like, everybody was just crying. And, yeah, I'm almost tearing up thinking about it, because it's just like...I don't know, it's ridiculous. Like, I'm almost angry, too, looking back.
Janelle Jolley 57:31
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that.
No, no, not nangry at any of the moment, but angry at how profound that was. You know, angry at the world that makes it that profound. Angry at the fact that there could be so much tied up in this, like, fairly arbitrary, you know, thing.
Janelle Jolley 57:52
I see, I see.
Where it's like, you know, yeah. And that it was upon, you know, leaving and getting there that I just felt...what it..it was, like, you know, like a...I don't want to say class transition in that moment, but sort of like that. Yeah. Like, at the very least, I became- I transitioned to living among a different set of people. And I felt like I almost immediately felt guilt at the same time.
Janelle Jolley 58:23
No! At the time?
Yeah! In that, it was this, like, "Oh my God, this actually does mean, I'm gonna..." like, it almost felt like it was like, "Now I'm going to the other side," almost. Which was so we- like, and it's just, I don't know, it's interesting now to even just try to unpack this live right here.
Janelle Jolley 58:42
Is that it feels like, you know, that that was a part of it. That, like, almost internalizing this righteous struggle so much. And then to achieve this thing, which was such an indicator of what I had, you know, been coming to understand is a different class. Like, it felt like it was this weird thing, where it's like, the whole goal this whole time is to get here. And now to be here is to leave behind what I...and like, and I feel like that's a conflict that I've, like...it's dissonance, you know? And it's dissonance that I held on to and still hold on to.
Janelle Jolley 59:19
Of course you do.
And, you know, and there's- it's- there's so many layers of this strange guilt, too? Where it's like, I am guilt- I feel guilty that, you know, that I got lucky to have had things play out in this way and- and get to feel like I have agency in it, that I am doing something for myself, that, you know, that there's this coexistence with the fact that I am lucky to be in a position where I feel like there is a correlation between what I am working for and what I am getting. You know? And that, like...and then it's almost like this meta guilt over feeling guilty about it?
Janelle Jolley 1:00:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That it's like, again, just shut up and appreciate it, man.
Janelle Jolley 1:00:04
No, but it's not easy.
Yeah. And, I don't know, it's a- it's- especially just with- just general, I feel like I have a pattern of just this very metacognitive thought, thinking about how I'm thinking about things and thinking that I'd like to think about that I'm thinking about things. And then, you know, and then it just really manifests in this, too, where I'm just sort of like, "Oh shit. Well, I feel weird about that, but I even feel weird about feeling weird about it." And I feel weird about trying to talk to people about the fact that I feel weird about this because it's a strange, you know, it's like I feel self conscious to bring this up as my conflict because of the fact that, again, one of the literal results here is that this financial anxiety subsided.
Janelle Jolley 1:00:53
So how does young Rob fare at Princeton and beyond? Surely that's what you're asking yourself. Well tune in for part two, where we learn more about his journey from Princeton to unionized tech worker.